billca42 User Profile

I remember when I was a tenderfoot. We had a great Boy Scout troop. We were voted best in New York State several times. One year we weren't because our scout master forgot to apply, and the group that ran the voting reamed him out for it! We had a court of honor where eight scouts made Eagle at the same time. It was a record at the time. Maybe it still is.

As you can imagine, I worked on a number of Eagle projects with all these scouts making Eagle. My favorite though was one involving a grave yard. Yes, a grave yard. It dated back to the 18th century. It was in the woods and completely overgrown, having been basically abandoned. The Eagle project was to restore it, both out of respect for those buried there, and to make it accessible, since it was historic simply for how old it was.

It was hard work clearing out the shrubs, pulling out vines, and everything else we had to do to bring it back. The best part, though, was when we camped out at night. No, we didn't camp out in the graveyard. That would have been disrespectful. We camped out in the woods outside the graveyard.

The scout who was heading it up for his Eagle project gathered all the younger boys around the fire for stories. I was one of the young ones. He told us about how back then, murderers weren't allowed to be buried in the cemetery. Instead, they were often buried in the grounds just outside the cemetery, in unmarked graves with no official records. So, of course, we might have our tent pitched right above a murderer's grave.

I don't know if what he said was true, but at that age I thought it was. The ghost stories were especially meaningful that night, and I remember being more uncomfortable thinking about what might be deeper under my sleeping bag than the tree root that was disturbing my sleep.

There is no record of the Boy Scouts interpreting "Morally Straight" to mean heterosexual until 1991. The change in funding of the BSA can be found by reviewing its books. You can't tell me that the fact that the BSA's largest contributor, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, decision to withdraw from the BSA if homosexuals were allowed in had no effect on policy.

By the way, have you noticed that there hasn't been a World Jamboree in the USA since 1967? Nor will there by until the BSA joins the rest of the world with what are now considered norms in civil rights and equality. I'll qualify that: Norms in Western Europe, Canada and most likely the majority of the United States, though the latter is a tough call.

As for the fact I made the statement that slavery was moral until the Civil War, you missed my point entirely. It was never moral. But it was moral to the people in the South who started a war rather give up their racist worldview.

As for you twisted logic on bigotry, are you trying to say that the abolitionists were bigots because they disagreed with the slave owners? I don't think that you miss the parallel here at all. It just conflicts with your convictions. You believe that homosexuality is immoral. You are unlikely to change in this conviction, and you disagree with anyone who says that it is not a sin. Isn't that what you really mean?

The answer is that they are under no obligation to change. By the way, your definition of bigotry is correct, and it does apply to the current attitude of the Boys Scouts.

As to why the Boy Scouts should change (which is different than obliged to change), it's because we now know that sexual orientation is not a choice, but is something that people are born with. That puts it in the same category as race. As to whether same sex orientation is "morally straight," that would depend on what you consider moral. Slavery was moral from the time of Moses up until the Civil War. Southern preachers talked of the "Curse of Ham" which showed biblically that blacks were meant to be slaves. I would suggest that the descendants of those preachers now use similar arguments to defend their views on homosexuality.

There is absolutely no evidence whatever that having homosexuals involved with children is harmful. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that children raised by same sex couples are no different from any other children. Gay teachers do just as good a job teaching as straight teachers. Your statement suggests that having a gay person involved in scouting will bring a loss of innocence is completely unfounded. I doubt that you could find a single fact to back up that statement.

The Boys Scouts of America has been hijacked by the conservative religious groups which now provide its major funding. It is the only non-religious national youth program which excludes gays. I would go as far as to say that the Boy Scouts is itself becoming a religious organization, and it is the religion of its major sponsors. If we don't allow diversity in the Boy Scouts, it will sooner or later become shadow of what it was, as it marginalizes itself. That's not because that homosexuals make up any significant part of its membership. It's because many people will not want to be involved with a program prides itself on excluding a minority.

The Boy Scouts are the Best!

It's the best because it's the oldest scouting program in America.

It's the best because it's the largest scouting program in America.

It's the best because in every neighborhood in America, there's a program for boys. The Boy Scouts come into the schools and ask every boy to join, and many do!

It's the best because the Boy Scouts uphold values that all Americans can agree with, like being good to people, supporting the community, and living a moral life.

It's the best because any boy can join, no matter what color his skin is, where his parents are from, or how much money his parents make.

It's the best! Who wouldn't want to join!

Except, if you don't believe in God, you can't join. Except if you're a gay father, you can't be a leader. Except if you believe that the boy scouts should be open to atheists and gays, you'll be ostracised and told to start your own scouting group.

It's not right for people in Scouting who have a narrow view of what America is to take over a great institution, put in their own views, and then say that anyone who doesn't like it can leave. We need restore the core values of the Boy Scouts, which does not include bigotry.

Please see my site: http://www.scoutdiveristy.org/

Bill

I agree that anyone who takes any sort of antagonistic attitude when talking about their own beliefs or sexual orientation is doing a disservice to their scouts. Having said, that I don't think that the Boy Scouts should discriminate against atheists or homosexuals. Of course, they have a right to do that as a private institution, but I don't think that discrimination is the right thing to do.

Specifically, I know of a case of a professional working in a High Adventure program who was fired when it was discovered that he was a homosexual. More than one scout or leader was asked to leave for being an atheist. I just don't feel that that is consistent with overall excellent record the Boy Scouts has with diversity in other areas, such as race, ethnicity, national origin, socio-economic status, or religion in general. I think it would be great if atheists and homosexuals were included in scouting. It sends the right message to the boys about the acceptance of diversity, even when there are people who don't accept certain differences.

I live in Massachusetts where same sex marriages are legal, and are likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future. Many people hate that, but I don't. Why can't the Boy Scouts be on the inclusive side on this issue?

Bill